Justin Gurland, founder and CEO of The Maze, shares how he built New York's first alcohol-free members club from a personal recovery journey into a thriving community hub, complete with obsessive attention to design and hospitality, and a vision for expanding "The Maze" to cities across the country.
Justin shares how he transformed his own recovery journey into The Maze, New York City's first alcohol-free members club, built on a "home away from home" philosophy and an obsessive eye for design and detail. He breaks down why he chose a membership model over a public café, how the physical space was engineered to compete with the city itself for people's attention, and what it takes to keep hospitality and maintenance standards tight a year into operation.
Welcome to Elevating Brick and Mortar. A podcast about how operations and facilities drive brand performance.
On today's episode, we talk with Justin Gurland, Founder and CEO of The Maze. A former social worker with 15 years in behavioral health and nearly two decades in recovery himself, Justin brings a deeply personal mission to hospitality, building a space where sobriety and community-building meet thoughtful design.
Guest Bio:
Justin Gurland is the Founder and CEO of The Maze, New York City’s first alcohol-free
members club, redefining how people connect, socialize, and build community without alcohol at the center.
Sober for 18 years, Justin is a Licensed Master Social Worker (LMSW) with more than 15 years of experience working in the substance use and recovery field. Throughout his career, he has worked closely with individuals and families navigating addiction, helping them rebuild their lives through connection, structure, and support.
His work is grounded in a simple belief: connection is at the core of lasting change. Over time, he saw a consistent gap - while many people were seeking sobriety or more mindful ways of living, there were few spaces designed to support connection without alcohol as the focal point. That insight became the foundation for The Maze.
With The Maze, Justin has translated his clinical and personal experience into a new kind of social environment - one that brings together dining, thoughtfully curated programming, and a strong sense of community. His approach blends structure with creativity, creating a space where members can return regularly, build relationships, and feel a genuine sense of belonging.
As the sober-curious movement continues to gain momentum, Justin is helping to shape a broader cultural shift around how people gather and engage. Through The Maze, he is building a model that extends beyond hospitality - one that prioritizes consistency, connection, and purpose, and reflects a more modern, inclusive approach to social life.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:53 - About The Maze: Brand, Services & History
01:31 - Justin’s sobriety and career journey: the path to The Maze
06:25 - The Maze’s North Star
11:13 - Finding the space: the story behind The Maze’s location
18:21 - Maintaining the space: upkeep, team culture & hospitality lessons
22:37 - Scaling The Maze: expansion, local culture & staying true to community
28:58 - Technology’s role in physical spaces & the vision for The Maze’s future
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[00:00:00] Producer: Welcome back to Elevating Brick and Mortar, a podcast about how operations and facilities drive brand performance. On today's episode, we'll hear from Justin Gurland, founder and CEO of The Maze, New York City's alcohol-free members club. Justin shares how a deeply personal journey led him to build a space that blends world-class hospitality with intentional design and community-first thinking, proving that a physical space can be the heart of a brand's identity.
[00:00:31] Producer: Now here's your host, Sid Shetty.
[00:00:35] Sid Shetty: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Season 5 of Elevating Brick and Mortar. Thank you for joining us. I'm here today with Justin Gurland, founder and CEO of The Maze. Justin, welcome to the show.
[00:00:46] Justin Gurland: Thank you, Sid. Great to be here.
[00:00:47] Sid Shetty: Great to have you. Justin, for, for the folks that are listening who aren't yet familiar with The Maze, could you share a little bit more about The Maze, the concept, and the idea behind it?
[00:00:56] Justin Gurland: I have a couple different ways to explain it, but really, I think the most important thing to, to note is that we're an alcohol-free members club here in New York City, and we are dedicated to really building a, a, a thriving alcohol-free community, starting here and, and hopefully building out other cities to follow.
[00:01:15] Sid Shetty: And, and from what I understand, you originally envisioned this being closer to a coffee shop concept, right? Uh, or a cafe. And how, how did that evolve into what The Maze is today?
[00:01:26] Justin Gurland: So it, it really, it goes back to I, I'm, I'm somebody who's in recovery. I got sober when I was 25 years old here in New York, and I'd always found it very curious why there wasn't li- there wasn't the place to go for people like myself.
[00:01:43] Justin Gurland: Now, granted, 18 years ago when I got sober, the landscape of the alcohol-free sober world was very different. It wasn't as posh or cool or it wasn't really in the zeitgeist certainly like it is today and, and, you know, s- pretty mu- you know, kind of in the last couple years. So it al- it always been on my mind that there needs to be a place.
[00:02:05] Justin Gurland: I then spent my career for about 15 years working in behavioral health. I have a background in social work. I have a licensed master of social work degree, and I worked in the recovery space for a long time. And so I had my personal journey of recovery, and then I had clients over the years. And a lot of people were...
[00:02:21] Justin Gurland: The question always came up, like, "What, what are we gonna do for fun?" Yeah. "Where are we gonna meet other people? Where can we date?" And you know, what's amazing about recovery but sobriety, you know, and y- is that you figure it out. You know, when you're, when you're motivated and you wanna figure it out, you're gonna figure it out.
[00:02:35] Justin Gurland: But it still kept coming up that there wasn't really the place.
[00:02:38] Justin Gurland: And so several years ago, I was transitioning out of that career and I was like, "What if we just created it? What if we just built the place that never existed?" And it was, it was insane to some degree because I, I, I really didn't have a background in, certainly in restaurants or even in that aspect of hospitality, but I had the passion, and I fe- I felt like I knew what people wanted.
[00:03:00] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:03:00] Justin Gurland: So I thought- To answer your question, I thought I would build a really cool coffee shop. Mm. Now, here in New York, there's coffee shops every other storefront.
[00:03:09] Sid Shetty: Yeah, of course.
[00:03:10] Justin Gurland: And however, it's also amazing to me that some don't even have bathrooms. Mm. Some don't have Wi-Fi. Some don't even have seats.
[00:03:17] Justin Gurland: They want you in and out, and, and the ones that do have seats, they want you, um, they really don't want you to stay for very long. Obviously, New York, New York is very expensive, and I had this vision of what I wanted it to look like in my mind, and I started to think, "Well, I feel like that's a lot of cups of coffee to sell to make it look and feel the way that I want it to look and feel."
[00:03:36] Justin Gurland: When it was the coffee shop concept in my head, it really didn't go much further than my head. I didn't want it to be the sober place. I just thought it would go viral, or it would be like, "If you know, you know. This is just where sober people hang out." And then I transitioned to this membership model idea where I could, you know, certainly from a business perspective, have that revenue.
[00:03:57] Justin Gurland: But what was more important to me is that it would allow me to be able to curate the community in a really deliberate way because if you're spending the time to first fill out an application and then spend a yearly fee, you wanna be part of this community. Yeah. And so that idea allowed for a lot of weight and substance to, to building that community.
[00:04:17] Sid Shetty: That makes a lot of sense. You know, thank you for sharing. So how do we think about, like, the space? Is it... So do we think of it as it's a social sp- gathering space that has multiple types of lo- you know, pieces to the, to the built environment, but also it's a restaurant with some really great food? Like, can you, can you share a bit more about that?
[00:04:37] Justin Gurland: Sure. The food is amazing. We are, we are partnered with Tom Colicchio and Crafted Hospitality to oversee the food and bev piece of it. Yeah. So when we, when we developed that relationship, we knew that-
[00:04:49] Justin Gurland: Kinda like how you think the, the kitchen is the heart of the home- Yeah ... and everybody gathers in the kitchen.
[00:04:53] Justin Gurland: We, we wanted the food to be integral to what we do here because when you don't drink and you're looking to meet people, food is a great equalizer, and people- Yeah ... sit around the table and, and you're, it, it's very natural and you can become comfortable. So when you walk in, in many ways, if you've never been here before, it might feel like a restaurant.
[00:05:10] Justin Gurland: We were able to divide it up in a way so that it's not just one big dining room with tables. W- I mean, there is, but we have a lounge area as well with couches and televisions. Mm-hmm. And that's open to the main space, too. And then in the back where I am currently, we call it the speakeasy. So it's a separate bar and seating area with a private dining.
[00:05:27] Justin Gurland: So we're able to have these pockets of space throughout so that whether you're here working for the day, you can always find a little pocket, or we can host mul- multiple events in one day or night.
[00:05:38] Sid Shetty: That's awesome. So, you know, restaurants, New York City, you know, uh, you kind of need people to come in and eat and, and move, right?
[00:05:46] Sid Shetty: Sounds like yours is not like that. Like, you, you, you welcome folks, you know, who are members to come and just spend time in the space, and food may be involved, but once they're done, like, they can go and just hang out in the space?
[00:05:58] Justin Gurland: Absolutely. That's the goal. You know, I, I never wanted it to be a place where it's churn and burn.
[00:06:04] Justin Gurland: Yeah. You know, I want people to be able to feel comfortable of, like, of sitting and hanging out or moving from their table over to the couch. In many ways, I feel like it might defy, like, what, what New York City restaurants are, are accustomed to because time is money. But we're, we're really all about building community.
[00:06:20] Justin Gurland: And when we have nights where there's a table of four over here, and three of them leave and one person stays, and then they join somebody's table, for me, there's nothing better than that. I, I love- Yeah ... seeing that kind of stuff.
[00:06:29] Sid Shetty: Yeah. And is that the North Star? Like, is that, is that w- w- you know, your, your vision, and is that kind of coming to life now?
[00:06:37] Sid Shetty: You've been open for a year, right, Justin?
[00:06:39] Justin Gurland: End of October will be a year. The North Star is that people are, are, are building relationships that they didn't have before, I think is... You know, we're in a society, I think, that is still very lonely. I th- I, I believe this loneliness epidemic i- is legitimate.
[00:06:55] Justin Gurland: It's real. I think we're still reeling from COVID and still getting back to some sense of, like, I don't know, where, where do we go from here? How-what is life like now? 'Cause it... I don't know. When I think back at, at the COVID stuff, it's wild to think that we really, we went... Like, that happened. It really- I know
[00:07:11] Justin Gurland: that really... And- For me, it takes a second to be like, "Oh, wow, I gotta, I gotta put myself back in that position," because it was, it was rough there for a minute.
[00:07:20] Justin Gurland: I think phones are a huge problem. I think s- the screen addiction thing is a huge problem. So, you know, if we can... I- if we could create a space where people are here and...
[00:07:29] Justin Gurland: And we're not a phone-free environment, I don't wanna give that impression, but it's nice when people are here really truly connecting. Yeah. We've had relationships that have started here, real friendships. We've been able to host weddings, engagements here- Oh ... wedding, wedding brunches. And I think what's- what I love about what we're doing is we're kinda, we're kind of a Google Doc in the sense that we're, we're always evolving.
[00:07:50] Justin Gurland: Gotcha. And we're able to just, you know, create, erase, adjust, be creative.
[00:07:56] Sid Shetty: Yeah. I love it. Now, I wanna spend some time talking about the actual physical space itself, right? You're creating a, a brand-new concept fro- from the ground up, right? How do you think about translating the idea of The Maze, like, into a physical environment?
[00:08:12] Sid Shetty: Like, what was your take on how you want it to look, how you wanted it to feel, the design elements? And ultimately, like, when someone walks into your space, like, what do you want them to feel?
[00:08:24] Justin Gurland: I'm the kind of person where if I, if I feel like I'm the smartest person in the room, I'm in the wrong room. Yeah.
[00:08:29] Justin Gurland: So I am not afraid to ask for help. I am not afraid to get expertise. So when it came to this, like, this specific design, the details, there was a lot of people involved. I'm very proud to say, and I say this with no ego whatsoever, I was involved with every single decision. I'm very proud of that. My only request with that was that they narrow it down to three choices.
[00:08:52] Justin Gurland: So our designer, Adrian, who I adore, and the design, we can get into the... I, I love talking about it 'cause I... it was just such an amazing experience 'cause we really became a family between our team, design, architect, contractors. But she, she would take, like, 1,000 doorknobs and narrow it down to three for me.
[00:09:10] Justin Gurland: The word that kept coming up for me when we were in the initial phase of, of design was home. I want it to feel like a home. Like, it's, it's comfortable enough where, you know, it's not sterile, it's not a museum. You can come and hang out here. You can feel comfortable bringing friends and guests here. That was my one thing.
[00:09:30] Justin Gurland: She also knew my favorite color was green, so she used a lot of green in, in the main space.
[00:09:34] Sid Shetty: Oh, gotcha.
[00:09:35] Justin Gurland: Yeah. And, uh, I tr- I put a lot of trust in her, and she n- she nailed it. She knocked it out of the park with, with pretty much everything. Th- Are there some things that I would edit if I could go back?
[00:09:46] Justin Gurland: Maybe, but overall, I'm very happy with how it looks and feels.
[00:09:50] Sid Shetty: W- w- why was the physical space so important? Like, and the design elements so important? I mean, 'cause as a concept, I mean, you know, if you... You could go either way. You could say, "Hey, it's a space," and, you know, we- all the other things that we do that create the sense of community can be done even without necessarily the kind of focus and the kind of curation that you've brought to the space, right?
[00:10:15] Sid Shetty: So why did- why was that important to you when you thought about this is what The Maze stands for? Why was the physical space so important and the design elements?
[00:10:23] Justin Gurland: We're unique in the sense that there's no other alcohol-free members clubs out there. There's some alcohol-free spaces. There's obviously a lot of clubs.
[00:10:32] Justin Gurland: So- I was asked a lot, "Who's your competition?" Yeah. And at first I was like, "Oh, we don't have any competition. We're the only ones that do what we do." I'm a Grateful Dead fan, and so there's this great, like, quote associated with them that's, uh, "They're not the best at what they do, they're the only ones that do what they do."
[00:10:48] Justin Gurland: And so, like, that, that resonated with me. However, as I really got honest about the whole arc, I think our competition is New York City. Yeah. And our competition i- is people's lives. You know, people have kids and-
[00:11:02] Sid Shetty: Mind space, yeah.
[00:11:02] Justin Gurland: Well, people have kids. They have-they have families, they have jobs. So I'm a creature of habit.
[00:11:07] Justin Gurland: I'll go to the same place every single day and, and be perfectly happy, but so I knew that the space had to compete with some of the other cool spots that, that other people were going to. I think also, Sid, I wanted it to be a place that I would hang out at, that I would- Yeah ... wanna go to.
[00:11:23] Justin Gurland: Me as a 43-year-old dad or a 25-year-old newly sober person and, and everything in between.
[00:11:29] Justin Gurland: Yeah. And so I, I think a, a lot of that was, was in my mind d- during that process.
[00:11:34] Sid Shetty: Yeah, I love it. I mean, y- you're spot on. I mean, I think that's one of the things that we talk about on the show with guests from all sorts of industries and brands, that ultimately, like, you're not just competing with, you know, a similar category restaurant or, or retailer or convenience store, whatever that business may be.
[00:11:53] Sid Shetty: You're competing with mind space, and you're competing in that moment when someone is walking by your location. Do they choose to walk through your door and, you know, sit down and have a meal, or do they walk a little further and go to the co- a coffee shop and, you know, just have a co- coffee and a sandwich?
[00:12:11] Sid Shetty: Like, you're competing across so many different types of choices that the consumers have today. And in that moment, when that consumer is standing in front of your door, like, that physical space, that facade, that, that entrance, like, that is the brand, right? Like, you either attract someone in or they walk by your door.
[00:12:29] Sid Shetty: And you said it perfectly. You're competing with New York City. You're not just competing with a similar category of, of space, right?
[00:12:35] Justin Gurland: Yeah. You know, it's so interesting because... Can I tell you about how we found the space real quick? Yeah. I think you-
[00:12:40] Sid Shetty: Yeah, yeah. Please.
[00:12:42] Justin Gurland: I, I first looked at this space in April of 2024, right?
[00:12:46] Justin Gurland: And it was, it was eerie because the restaurant that was here prior must have moved out, like, the night before. Like, the tables were set, the art was up. It w- like, it felt like I was just walking into a... You know, they were just closed for the day or whatever.
[00:12:59] Justin Gurland: And there was another restaurant looking at it at the same time, and so they already were, like, pitting everybody against each other, and the rent they were asking was s- insane.
[00:13:08] Justin Gurland: I mean, it still is, of course, but at the time it was even more insane than it is now. And but, like, the bones were here, and it was j- like, they had just left, so everything was in really good condition. Obviously, it needed to be demoed and, and designed, of course, but it was in really... And it had, it had the full kitchen.
[00:13:24] Justin Gurland: And, but it was so expensive. And so I said to my broker, "We gotta walk away." And he, the guy, he happens to be one of my brother's best friends, so I could, you know- Hmm ... mess with him a little bit. But I, he was... And he was trying to talk me, or, and I guess he could mess with me, but he was trying to talk me into it.
[00:13:36] Justin Gurland: "You don't understand what you're gonna save at construction, and the kitchen's here, and bl-" And I was like, "It just doesn't work." And so I had him drop it. And we ended up finding a space. So we're on 24th between 5th and 6th. Okay. And then there was a space on 21st and 7th that I actually, I loved, but the location was, like, if, y- this, the loca- it's a 10 out of 10.
[00:13:56] Justin Gurland: You can't beat this. That was, uh, I don't know, let's put it at, like, a 7.5.
[00:14:02] Sid Shetty: Okay. Gotcha.
[00:14:02] Justin Gurland: At the time when I didn't think this was a possibility, I was counting it as a 10, but, like, but neighborhood-wise, it wasn't, it wasn't the same.
[00:14:10] Justin Gurland: So anyway, hold that for a sec. Six months later, I was walking by here just on 24th Street, and the for rent sign was right in the window.
[00:14:18] Justin Gurland: And I called my broker and I said, "Well, what's going on?" And he calls me back. He said, "The landlord, the guy lives in Israel, he's in town for one day." And I said, "Just get me in the room with him." I, I... And we met the next day at, right upstairs, and he goes, "Tell me about yourself, Justin." And I jump into the business plan and my model and the idea, and he goes, "I, I don't care about that stuff.
[00:14:39] Justin Gurland: Tell me about you." Yeah. "Tell me about your family." And I was like This is my kind of guy. And so like- There you go ... I felt really good about that. And then, whatever, we obviously, we made it work. He gave us an exclusive to work on the lease. We signed it on New Year's Eve of 2024, which was like, you know, just a cool timing.
[00:14:55] Sid Shetty: Perfect.
[00:14:55] Justin Gurland: And the space on 7th Avenue that I loved, they were giving me the runaround anyway, but, like, it was all a blessing in disguise. But to go back to your question, the block, what we're able to do, how we're able to face the street, like, the fine details that we're able, that we're able to brand to face the world, I, I really do think made, made a difference.
[00:15:14] Sid Shetty: Thanks for sharing that story. That, that's cool. Y- you know, what's interesting is when you, when you think about just brands in general as well, there's so many leaders I talk to, and they all come down to the same thing. Like, they all talk about how there's a lot of space available, but when you talk about really good spaces that, that you want, that is still a scarcity.
[00:15:35] Sid Shetty: And so, like, there's a lot of brands competing for the same location, the same type of space. And so, you know, what you're saying is like ir- irrespective of how big or small you are or how many locations you might have, if you can get down to giving the importance to each location and giving it the, you know, the attention it deserves, and finding the location and the space, like, that ultimately has a huge influence on your brand.
[00:16:00] Sid Shetty: And it sounds like, you know, you in your gut had a feeling of what exactly you wanted in terms of location and type of location and space and, and it has, sounds like it has influenced what the brand ultimately has become, right?
[00:16:13] Justin Gurland: I think so. I think there's some truth to that. I knew I wanted to be in this general neighborhood.
[00:16:18] Justin Gurland: So, you know, New York is such an... And I've lived here for a long time. It's such an interesting place because, like, mileage-wise or as the crow flies or whatever- Yeah ... nothing is really that far.
[00:16:29] Sid Shetty: That's right. That's right.
[00:16:30] Justin Gurland: But, but we stay, we stay in our, our neighborhoods. You don't wanna get in a cab if you don't have to.
[00:16:34] Justin Gurland: You don't wanna get in the subway if you don't have to. And so the first priority was getting in a centralized location where uptown, downtown, east, west, outer boroughs could, could get to very easily. Yeah. So that was... Once we nailed that, I feel like things started to fall into place a little bit easier.
[00:16:50] Sid Shetty: Love it. Now that you've spent a year, like, actually seeing your, your members use your space, are they using it like you expected? Are they interacting with the, the brand and the space like you expected? Has anything surprised you?
[00:17:03] Justin Gurland: One thing that I actually found surprising was... So we opened the very end of October last year, so football season was kind of in full swing.
[00:17:12] Justin Gurland: Our membership, you know, we started with a decent amount of members, but it obviously started to pick up. I really thought that Sundays during football season were gonna be the day.
[00:17:23] Justin Gurland: And it really wasn't so much last year. I think it'll be different this year 'cause we'll have the whole season, we have fantasy football leagues going, and we have, obviously have more members.
[00:17:31] Justin Gurland: But I remember talking to a, a member ar- in football season and asking about it, and he goes I can watch the game at home.
[00:17:38] Justin Gurland: I joined The Maze because I want this. I wanna talk, I wanna hang out, I wanna do... You know? And so I found that to be really interesting and beautiful. You know, they wanna come for trivia night.
[00:17:49] Justin Gurland: Yeah. They wanna come for the c- the cooking class. You know, where you're really stepping outside your comfort zone or you're, you're being more intimate with people, uh, rather than just sitting and watching s- a screen and, or listening to a, a speaker or something like that.
[00:18:03] Sid Shetty: Yeah. We talked a lot about, like, the physical space and the design and how you, how you got here, right?
[00:18:09] Sid Shetty: Part of our audience, like a huge part of our audience, are folks that are i- you know, managing the built environment for the brands that they serve, right? Either on the facilities management side or architecture or design or construction or service providers as well, who are actually there to support the business and are doing the work, right?
[00:18:26] Sid Shetty: I'm curious, like, when... Now that y- you've had a year of the location being open, and with the kind of attention to detail that you've had on the design and the space itself, how do you ensure that the space doesn't start looking tired, right? And, and start having maintenance issues and, you know, like you've moved on to, like, serving the customer, but then there's these things that are taking place that ultimately impact. You know what I mean?
[00:18:53] Justin Gurland: I'm crazy. I, I'm- You know ... I'm, I'm crazy. When I was a kid, if I left my bedroom light on and my dad kind of walked past my bedroom, he would come downstairs and he'd say, "Jess, you left your light on." You know. And not, not just flip it off even though he walked right past it. He would have me, like, go upstairs.
[00:19:09] Justin Gurland: And that is, like, is tattooed on my brain. And so as a result, I am n- I'm in- I'm crazy with s- with specific details. Like the lights and the air conditioning and stuff like that, like that's, that's of course a thing, but chipped paint, loose doorknobs, the way the, um, toilet paper faces, those are things that I, I really notice.
[00:19:31] Justin Gurland: And- Yeah ... the team kind of does, too. We're, we're really- Yeah ... we really work together. So do we touch up a chipped paint every time it happens? It depends. It depends how it looks. We, we usually do a kind of a, a cleaning every season, tighten things up, fix things up, because in order to serve the community, like you said, it's gotta be tight.
[00:19:51] Justin Gurland: You know? Yeah. It's gotta be, you know, what am I paying for? Where's my membership dollars going to?
[00:19:56] Justin Gurland: And we get- Really specific and detailed with how the food is prepped and prepared and plated and, you know, and every, every detail is really, is examined and- Yeah ... paid attention to.
[00:20:08] Sid Shetty: Totally. H- how have you operationalized that part of it?
[00:20:11] Sid Shetty: Like, the physical environment, of course, like, you have oversight on it, but, you know, w- which team is responsible for ensuring that there's the aesthetic space, and then there's also the, the equipment, you know, that ensures comfort. You know, you, you have a full-blown kitchen in your, in your space, right?
[00:20:26] Sid Shetty: So you know, how, who's responsible for ensuring that your, your kitchen equipment's not down? Because ultimately, like, you know, it, it may be a space that people come into, and maybe this is a question, right? People come into the space and, you know, they wanna hang out, but if they've ordered food, like, people's attention span is so slow, you know, low, and, you know, the people still want their food really fast, and, and you- downed equipment impacts that.
[00:20:48] Sid Shetty: So how, how do you look at and think about maintaining the space, keeping on top of your assets, and ensuring that, you know, not just the aesthetics and the ambiance and the comfort are taken care of, but also, like, your working assets that ultimately, like, impact, you know, consumer experience are, are all in check?
[00:21:05] Justin Gurland: It's so funny. When you say it like that, it actually sounds like there's a lot to do. I feel so positive hearing that question, Sid, 'cause I feel like we're in s- we're in a really good groove.
[00:21:17] Justin Gurland: I, I think the most important thing, and I, I, I get a lot of this from Danny Meyer's book Setting the Table.
[00:21:23] Justin Gurland: You've read it?
[00:21:24] Sid Shetty: Yep.
[00:21:24] Justin Gurland: I've been going to Union Square Cafe since I'm a kid, right? We, that was like, it was every... It was birthdays and celebrations. And as a kid, like, you don't know that's the best restaurant or the number one restaurant. It's just where your parents take you. That- Yep ... that was at least my experience.
[00:21:38] Justin Gurland: And then as I got older and realized, like, and I started to have some agency about where I went, I was like, "Huh, oh, what makes me wanna go back here?" And then I read the book, and I'm like, "Oh, wow, this is really by design." You know- Yeah ... there, there's a re- the food is obviously sick, but, like, there's a reason for it.
[00:21:52] Justin Gurland: And he, he... I read the book before we opened, and one thing that really stood out was if the team is not trained, and more importantly, happy, nothing is gonna succeed below it. And so what, what I'm really proud of is we, we have built a really dedicated and strong team. Everybody wears a lot of hats.
[00:22:11] Justin Gurland: Yeah. Knows where to delegate when necessary, but everybody wears a lot of hats so that, you know, you're not gonna hear anybody here say, "Oh, that's not my job."
[00:22:19] Justin Gurland: Generally, the back of house, the kitchen staff, you know, really monitors anything that's, like, that's kitchen related. We are closed on Mondays, which was by design, but it's also a great day to, like, to reset, if repairs are needed, if anything's gonna be fixed.
[00:22:33] Justin Gurland: Yeah. We, we have service contracts, you know, endless- Yeah ... to, to make sure everything's running properly. And, um, and we're, and we're on it. We're here a lot. You know- Yeah ... those of us, our, our team is small but mighty, but we're here a lot, so we notice.
[00:22:46] Sid Shetty: I love it. Yeah, I know. Huge Danny Meyer's fan as well. I mean, we had the privilege of having Danny and Meyer come and talk at one of our events, you know, a few years ago just before COVID, our user group event where we had all our customers and, uh, he was, you know, uh, the keynote speaker and just fantastic to hear just the stories, anecdotes, and I think our, our customers got a lot o- out of it.
[00:23:08] Sid Shetty: And Shake Shack, you know, love the brand, and they've built something amazing there, and they also are a customer for many years, and when they were a much smaller number of locations, right? But I remember, like many years ago, like we were obsessed with, "Hey, we, we gotta get Shake Shack," because we loved the product.
[00:23:25] Sid Shetty: We loved the customer loyalty that they built, right? Which is, which says a lot about, you know, how you think about creating a brand and running a business and creating just crazy fans, right?
[00:23:35] Justin Gurland: Yeah. Yeah. Another story that stands out just in terms of hospitality is, uh, unreasonable hospitality.
[00:23:42] Sid Shetty: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:23:43] Sid Shetty: Sure.
[00:23:44] Justin Gurland: S- This guy... So he's the general manager at, um, Eleven Madison Park. Right?
[00:23:49] Sid Shetty: Yep, yep.
[00:23:50] Justin Gurland: And there's a family eating there. It's around Christmas time. It's the winter. They had never been to New York before, th- and they'd never seen snow before.
[00:23:56] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:23:56] Justin Gurland: And the kids are at this dinner, and they're freaking out 'cause it's snowing.
[00:24:00] Justin Gurland: And so they had the presence of mind to go and buy sleds and have a car waiting for when they finished their meal.
[00:24:08] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:24:08] Justin Gurland: And they said, "You know, we have a surprise for you," and they sent them up to the park to go sledding for the first time in their lives. And so what, what they wrote after that was like nowhere in the P&L or the budget- Yeah
[00:24:19] Justin Gurland: is there anything for sleds and a, you know, SUV up to the park. But they did it knowing that that's gonna be a story that these people are gonna tell for the rest of their lives. That's right. They're gonna come back to that restaurant every time they're in the city, and they're, and they're gonna tell all their friends.
[00:24:33] Justin Gurland: And I... That also resonated with me. We did this engagement here just the other night. It was, it was unbelievable. It was just the most beautiful... This, this couple had broken up, and then they got back together, and their first date getting back together was here. He was a member.
[00:24:49] Sid Shetty: Nice.
[00:24:49] Justin Gurland: And so months later, he's proposing, and this is the only place he wants to do it, and the team just killed it.
[00:24:56] Justin Gurland: I mean- That's awesome ... he asked for, he asked for roses. We got two dozen. You know, flower petals on the floor. I mean, really just killed it. And so it was here in our back room, and he, he had designed the menu, and someone said, "Did you charge for the room?" And I was like, "No. You know, we charged for the f- Could we have charged for the room, and would he have paid?
[00:25:16] Justin Gurland: 100%. Of course." Yeah. The goal of that night was to really make it special and make it memorable and- Yeah ... and we did, and, and that's gonna be a story that they're gonna tell hopefully for the rest of their lives.
[00:25:26] Sid Shetty: I love that. What you make people feel like, you can't put a price tag on it. Yeah. That's, that's a great, that's a great story.
[00:25:31] Justin Gurland: And that was just the other day, so I'm still... I guess I'm still flying high from that.
[00:25:35] Sid Shetty: There you go. I love it. First of all, are you thinking about more locations? How do you envision keeping the same sort of, you know, maniacal focus on hospitality and making your, your members feel special? How do you think about scaling that if you were to scale that?
[00:25:50] Justin Gurland: Well, what I always say is I wanna nail New York.
[00:25:54] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:25:54] Justin Gurland: I think in order for this to work, Elser, we have to, we have to fill any hole.
[00:26:00] Justin Gurland: And I think we're doing a very good job. I think that- Every city, like wh- 'cause I've been sober for a long time, so what I've always said throughout traveling over these last, you know, 18, almost 19 years, is every great party town has an equally great recovery community.
[00:26:15] Justin Gurland: For sure. And so especially now with the increase of sober curious and the alcohol-free movement outside of people in recovery, I think not only does every city need something like this, but every city deserves something like this.
[00:26:29] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:26:30] Justin Gurland: There's the wellness community. There's, it, I mean, it's, it goes on and on.
[00:26:33] Justin Gurland: Not to mention Gen Z that, you know, very publicly is, is drinking less. So-
[00:26:37] Sid Shetty: Seems to be a lot less alcohol, yeah.
[00:26:38] Justin Gurland: Yeah. Does it concern me? Like, 'cause I'm not, theoretically I'm not moving, you know, somewhere else, so you know, it, yeah, it needs to be scalable to the point where it, it, it's a little bit automatic.
[00:26:49] Justin Gurland: I also wanna make sure I understand the place that it's going to, 'cause I, I've lived in New York for a long time. I understand it. There's so much of New York built into this from just the energy to the artwork, and I hope that other spaces in other cities maintain the energy of, of those cities also.
[00:27:04] Sid Shetty: So when you think about, like, the future and, like, let's say you were going into Chicago or Atlanta or Houston or Dallas, wherever you're going, right?
[00:27:12] Justin Gurland: Yeah.
[00:27:12] Sid Shetty: You envision that The Maze will have incorporated into its physical space and design elements, you know, the culture of the city as well?
[00:27:22] Justin Gurland: I think so. So, like, I'm a music fan. I love music. I love live music, and so we have a lot of music photographs throughout the space, and they're all connected to New York.
[00:27:31] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:27:32] Justin Gurland: Uh, so that's just, like, that's one small example. I think there's- Yeah ... there's ... And so it could be the artwork. It could be stuff on the menu that, that should really mimic the city that it's in. Yes. Yeah. I do believe in that, for sure.
[00:27:42] Sid Shetty: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:43] Justin Gurland: Another area for me to learn and get to know, you know, the same way that I did with the, our designer here, and just- Yeah
[00:27:49] Justin Gurland: sat and listened and let her, uh, use her expertise and, and tell me what to do, 'cause some of the stuff is new to me. It'll be the same thing as we move forward, I hope.
[00:27:58] Sid Shetty: Yeah. I, I'm curious, like wh- you know, when you walk into other brands and other spaces and restaurants, has being an entrepreneur and someone who has created a space now, and you have a lot of pride in terms of how it, how it's designed and how it feels and the kind of experience you're, you're, you're looking to give your members, has it changed how you perceive other brands?
[00:28:19] Sid Shetty: I mean, like when you walk into a restaurant, what are the things you notice? What are the things you're looking for that tell you, like, "Yeah, they're, they're doing it right"?
[00:28:27] Justin Gurland: Yeah, of c- yeah, I, I'm definitely more sensitive on both ends of the spectrum. When things are, like, not up to, like, the way- Yeah ... that I would do it.
[00:28:34] Justin Gurland: Yeah. And, and on the other end, I had dinner here at a restaurant a few months ago, and the waiter, I felt like I just wanted to hang out with him the next day. I wanted to take his number. Like, he was so good at his job that he act- it, you know, he, like, he made me feel like we were friends, and maybe we, maybe we would've been.
[00:28:50] Justin Gurland: I don't know. But the way that he, he s- he knew exactly how long to stay at the table. You know, he knew exactly how long to ... He knew what to recommend. He kn- he knew he was able to say, like, "Don't go, don't bother with that." You know, so- That is an area where I think we can always be evolving and, like, making that...
[00:29:07] Justin Gurland: 'Cause I, I, my family, my wife especially, always gives me a hard time that I'll sit and talk to a waiter all night long, getting their name, talking to them. And- Hmm ... and my wife will be like, "They... Justin, they don't wanna talk to you. Like, they have other things to do. They're not interested in talking." But, like, but they do, I feel like.
[00:29:23] Justin Gurland: You know? So that music is always a difficult thing to really nail down. You know, you don't want it to be so noticeable, but you also- but it does need to be noticeable so that, that, like, there's volume levels, has to be something that everybody can really enjoy. Uh, I'm very sensitive to that. Little things like Our, our restaurants, I think a lot of restaurants have, have abandoned giving bread service, for example, because it's, it's a, it's a huge cost.
[00:29:48] Justin Gurland: We do it at dinner time, but some restaurants are still giving extra things along with the meal in addition to bread, which I pick up on, you know, really easily. You know, I notice when there's like, there's your server and then there's a runner, like how many different people are stopping by the table.
[00:30:04] Justin Gurland: I'm always looking to gain insight from places that I enjoy going to. I have been very like locked into this place for a long time, so I haven't been exploring maybe the way that I used to, but, uh, for, for sure I'm sensitive to it.
[00:30:17] Sid Shetty: Yeah. Yeah. Are there any restaurants or retailers, you know, that you walk into and you're like, th- this...
[00:30:22] Sid Shetty: It either inspires you or you're like, "When I get to a place where I have 50 locations, like this is the kind of consistency and, you know, brand perception that I wanna continue having"?
[00:30:34] Justin Gurland: Tom Colicchio's restaurant Craft just closed, which was like shocking to all of us. But the service that we got there, I mean, yes, I have a connection to them, but the...
[00:30:43] Justin Gurland: It's 25 years of just they nailed it every single time. So from, from walking in and feeling welcome to being sad, and the staff was, was amazing. So having that personal connection to him and his team is priceless 'cause we, we get that. There's a restaurant, Torrisi, here in the city. That's what I was referencing earlier with the waiter that- Yeah
[00:31:03] Justin Gurland: there's a reason you can't get a reservation there. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just the food is ridiculous, and it's just, uh... it's a scene in, in the, in the best possible way. You know, of course, Danny Meyer's restaurants speak for themselves. Yeah. You know, the hospitality there. There's a clothing store that I, that I shop at occasionally and it's like, uh, that I've like developed a relationship, I guess, with one of the salespeople and so she'll, she'll text me, you know, "Hey, we just got some stuff in.
[00:31:28] Justin Gurland: I'm gonna send it to your apartment. If you don't like it, send it back." You know, she just makes the experience so easy, and it's just... I think it's, for me, it's like all about that personal touch.
[00:31:36] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:31:37] Justin Gurland: She has my number and we're in conne- or we're in contact, but you go to places where like even if they don't really remember you, they pretend like they do.
[00:31:43] Justin Gurland: That goes a long way for me.
[00:31:45] Sid Shetty: Yeah. Yeah. That, that, that's huge. I mean, it's interesting, like we are seeing... We've had a few leaders in our show that are chief experience officers, and then, you know, you talk to them and it's not just the experience for the consumer. It's the experience for the employee who's spending eight to 12 hours in your location every day as well.
[00:32:04] Justin Gurland: Yeah.
[00:32:04] Sid Shetty: 'Cause if you don't keep that person comfortable and excited and wanting to be there, guess what? When you- when a consumer walks in, there's no smile on the face. There's not the same kind of eagerness to support the buying experience or, you know, enhance the, the dining experience. Like that doesn't come n- at, you know, at some point, you know, people, human beings, right, you're, you're either exhausted or you're energized, right?
[00:32:28] Justin Gurland: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:29] Sid Shetty: A- and there's a huge contribution of the, of the physical space in it as well. A- as you think about, you know, you mentioned earlier, in a, in a, in a phone-free environment, but we're seeing a lot of technology, you know, make its way into physical spaces, right? Whether it's restaurants, you know, with ro- robots, or it is more digital experiences, you know, uh, combined and then there's a convergence of the phys- the physical and the digital.
[00:32:52] Sid Shetty: We call it phygital now, right?
[00:32:53] Justin Gurland: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:54] Sid Shetty: Would that ever happen at The Maze? Or, or you're very focused on the human connection and kind of avoiding getting to a place where there's too much tech involved?
[00:33:04] Justin Gurland: I'm curious what your feeling is on, on tech. Yeah. Because, like, for me, it's a double-edged sword. Like, it's, it's almost like a necessary evil, you know?
[00:33:13] Justin Gurland: I, I have two little kids, for example.
[00:33:15] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:33:15] Justin Gurland: And I hate when they're locked into their iPad, but also it's nice when you have a minute to, like, catch up on an email or do whatever you gotta do s- and they're, like, not pulling at your leg. And here it's like, we have an app, right? Yeah. You have to make reservations digitally.
[00:33:32] Justin Gurland: We have the game on TV. So it's a weird double-edged sword where I don't, I don't think it's realistic to eliminate it, but is there a world where it's phone-free Fridays and when you're here, you're physically here? I... Sure, I'd be down for that. I go out to places and I see two people out to dinner, they're both on their phone, and I'm just like, "What?
[00:33:51] Justin Gurland: Like, why? What's the point?" Yeah. I don't see a lot of that here. Right. I think that it... But it happens really naturally.
[00:33:55] Sid Shetty: Yeah. You know what's interesting in, like, you know, talking to a lot of folks across different types of brands, w- what I've realized is- I think technology is, is around us no matter what.
[00:34:05] Sid Shetty: Like, you know, whether you, we like it or not, it's, it's around us. Consumers expect an omni-channel experience. So whe- whether you're ordering food, you know, in person and doing takeout, or you're having food in the dining, you know, area, or you're going through the drive-through, which have made a comeback since COVID.
[00:34:23] Sid Shetty: Mm-hmm. Or you're ordering through a third-party app, like leveraging technology, right? No matter what, like consumers are expecting the same experience. Like they're interacting with Shake Shack. They're not interacting with Uber Eats or DoorDash. Like they, they're expecting what they're expecting in terms of the quality, the food, you know, all of that to be what they expect when they walk in to a location, right?
[00:34:44] Justin Gurland: Yes. Yeah.
[00:34:45] Sid Shetty: Consumers also want choice. Like when they walk into a space, depending on the brand, in some cases, if your brand is all around the human element and personal touch, you can choose to just have, the only way you can order food is by sitting down and having a meal and ordering your food with your, with your server.
[00:35:03] Sid Shetty: But the ones that are fast food or quick-serve restaurants, a lot of our customers or a lot of our, you know, the, the guests we're talking to, they're finding themselves having to give choices to consumers. Like, you wanna w- order d- you know, with someone at a counter? You have that option. You wanna order via kiosk?
[00:35:20] Sid Shetty: We now have three kiosks. You have that option. You wanna order- Yeah ... on your phone and come and pick it up, or like do it while you're in line or waiting in the restaurant or in the s- you know, in the space, you have that, right? So different brands are adopting these different variations of technology and are inserting it into their experience.
[00:35:39] Sid Shetty: But once you do that, then that experience has to be very much in alignment With the brand promise, right? Because then if you have a kiosk for the sake of having a kiosk, because you're like, "Yeah, we think our cus- consumers want it," but that experience is poor because it's not easy to use or it, you know, it's not really great for digital experience, then that actually takes away from the brand, and then con- consumers are like, "Why are you having it if it's so difficult to use it?
[00:36:04] Sid Shetty: I- no one uses it. We'll just go and order directly." That actually hurts, right? So if you're doing it, do it well, and then make sure that, you know, it becomes part of your brand and entity. You know, like for example, Gong Cha, you know, I, I spoke to the president of Americas, you know, on my previous episode, and he talked about how, you know, you order digitally, you have the option.
[00:36:26] Sid Shetty: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But when your drink is being served to you, there's a very, like, Asian-inspired, like, way of serving it as well to where, you know, you're, you're giving the choice of technology, but then when the human element is involved, it's at a heightened level, so people walk away with a smile, right? So it's very interesting how different brands are using technology, you know, and weaving it into their, their brand promise.
[00:36:50] Justin Gurland: So, you know what's so interesting? As you're saying that, I- obviously, today is 9/11.
[00:36:55] Sid Shetty: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:56] Justin Gurland: And I grew up in New Jersey very close to the city. I was, I was... It was my second week of college whеn, when 9/11 hit, so I was, I was outside of the area. Of course, you know, like all of us who were of age, you know, we remember exactly where everything went down.
[00:37:11] Justin Gurland: But now, over the last couple days, the- it's the 25th anniversary, and I'm seeing all this, um, footage and posts and whatever, you know, and I'm thinking about the- how different technology was back then.
[00:37:22] Sid Shetty: Mm.
[00:37:23] Justin Gurland: I don't know. Well, something you said just, like, you know, really made me think about that, that, like, we have, we have gotten so, I don't know if spoiled is the right word, but there's this Uber-ization of society where, okay, yes, I love what you just said.
[00:37:37] Justin Gurland: Like, okay, you can order digitally, but then the experience is very personal. But there- we have, we have gotten to the point where if we can't have something in an hour, what's the point of even getting it at all?
[00:37:48] Sid Shetty: That's right. You know? Instant gratification. And, and- And it's getting shorter and shorter, the window.
[00:37:52] Justin Gurland: 100%. Like, if you can't get an Amazon thing by tomorrow- Hell's breaking loose.
[00:37:57] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:37:57] Justin Gurland: But, but how often does that even happen?
[00:37:59] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:38:00] Justin Gurland: And so that's, that's another, I think, competitive piece that, like, we really need to be dealing with, with just, like, listen, I'm home. I'm, I'm texting and Instagramming and whatever with, with all my fr- We're, we're communicating anyway.
[00:38:12] Justin Gurland: What do I need to go meet them at The Maze for? You know, what do I... I, I could order a burger. I can still talk to them, you know, and I, and I think that's an area where hopefully we're, we're pushing up against that.
[00:38:23] Sid Shetty: From your perspective or, you know, just talking to you, it's actually a, a space where people can go and slow down and-
[00:38:30] Justin Gurland: Yeah
[00:38:30] Sid Shetty: and talk to each other and spend time enjoying the space you've created and enjoying the food you've created, so-
[00:38:36] Justin Gurland: And we're also- ... think, makes sense ... I got, I gotta say, too, that that's really makes me proud is we get a lot of people that come here straight from work, right? So daytime, I was expecting a lot of people to work from here, which, which they do, but a lot of our members are back in offices, which is, of course, we're leaving.
[00:38:50] Justin Gurland: But we get people that come straight from work. They get off the subway. Instead of going home, they come here. So they're in their workflows, and that, that's, I think, a really beautiful thing, too.
[00:38:59] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:38:59] Justin Gurland: That, like, this is where they're choosing to, like, to unwind at the end of the day.
[00:39:02] Sid Shetty: Yeah. I love it. A- as we wrap up, if we were to have this conversation five years from now and you look back, w- what would you hope The Maze has become in five years?
[00:39:13] Justin Gurland: In five years, I, I hope it's become international. I mean, certainly multi-citied here in, in America. I think something that really excites me is the idea of being able to, like, connect with other Maze members no matter where you are. So if you're a New Yorker and you're traveling to Miami and you're going to The Maze there, you're, you're a part of that community.
[00:39:36] Justin Gurland: You don't feel- Yeah ... like a tourist.
[00:39:38] Sid Shetty: Yeah.
[00:39:38] Justin Gurland: So I sort of feel like a lot of members clubs are, you know, you go with who you go with, and then you leave with the same group of people, and I'd like to be- this to be the kind of thing where you're proud of, like, of that logo. You- you're, you're proud of, of, of that membership so that you can carry it with you wherever you go.
[00:39:53] Justin Gurland: I would just like from a macro level, getting to see the, the community continue to evolve and, um, be interconnected in different ways, besides just being in the space at the same time.
[00:40:04] Sid Shetty: I love it. Well, you know, first of all, congratulations on, you know, seeing your dream through and, and building a new concept that sounds amazing, and I'd love to experience it, you know, at s- at some time.
[00:40:17] Justin Gurland: I'd love that.
[00:40:17] Sid Shetty: Yeah. And, um, I'd love to see you in more cities around the country and, and hopefully, uh, internationally as well. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for- Same ... being on the show and for just sharing your experience and sharing your vision, uh, with us, and, you know, I'd love to see, like, you know, in five years, like you've got, you know, you've spread around like, you know, on this, this mission.
[00:40:38] Sid Shetty: I- I'm very confident there'll be a huge impact. Just wanna say thank you again. For folks in our audience who wanna look you up or look up The Maze, like where can they, where can they find you?
[00:40:47] Justin Gurland: So Instagram, we're very active. We're @themazenyc. We are The Maze NYC on LinkedIn, and themazenyc.com. So we keep everything very up to date, announcements, pictures, events, and contact information is, is all throughout those channels also.
[00:41:07] Sid Shetty: Perfect. Well, with that, I'll say thank you once again.
[00:41:10] Justin Gurland: Thank you.
[00:41:10] Sid Shetty: A big thank you to everyone in our audience as well. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode of Elevating Brick and Mortar.
[00:41:21] Sid Shetty: Well, that was Justin Gurland, founder and CEO of The Maze. What really stood out to me from this conversation is that Justin isn't just building a new business. He's creating an entirely new concept and experience. And from the very beginning, the physical space has been front and center to what he's trying to create.
[00:41:40] Sid Shetty: The design, the atmosphere, how people use the space, and how it's maintained all connect back to the brand, the experience, and ultimately, the North Star for The Maze, which is creating a place where people genuinely want to spend time and connect with one another. And I think that's a great reminder for all of us.
[00:41:59] Sid Shetty: Your physical environment isn't simply where your brand shows up. It's one of the ways your customers experience what your brand stands for. With that, I'm your host, Sid Shetty, and I'll see you on the next season of Elevating Brick and Mortar.